February 19, 2006
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James from St Louis writes,
“No action you can do can save you. No action anyone bar the holy Son of God can save you! Not prayer, not love, not saying certain things…none of that can save you, for it is the gift of God. … I hold forth Calvinism as the only true doctrine in Scripture, and therefore I hold any other doctrine as false. If that doctrine is publicly avowed and obstinately adhered to, I hold it to be heresy. “Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and thou shalt be saved.” If you choose God of your own free will, do you truly believe on the Lord Jesus Christ? If you truly believe that without your choice your salvation would not exist today, do you believe on Jesus Christ alone? Or do you believe in your choice?”
My response to James:G’day James,
I found your site by searching “Arminianism” on the Xanga search engine.
I AGREE with EVERYTHING you said in the quote above. NOTHING is required for salvation from hell but the BARE WORK OF CHRIST. Belief is simply the way God reveals to a sinner that they are justified by Christ’s obedience to the Law and atoning blood.
You are also claim to be a supralapsarian. That’s good. I like the way you write,
“God created sin. God created Satan, and God not only KNEW, but CAUSED the fall of man. God ALONE has the power of creation. … God, as we know, has no concept of time. He does not and will not think of time, nor has He any use for it.”
My response:Correct!! God works ALL things according to the counsel of His own will.
James, I have some questions for you.
God says that all who believe the gospel are saved. Therefore, if a believer could doubt they are saved, wouldn’t they be calling God a liar in His promises? And doesn’t 1 John 5:10 say that those who call God a liar, are “not believing God” and “have not the Son”??
Can you find any believers in the Bible doubting they are saved?
Interested to hear your responses.
Andrew Bain
Sydney, Australia
Comments (18)
I responded on my site. You’ve taken some comments and rather twisted the implied meaning, I believe. Please refer to my site for a correction and/or further clarification of what I mean/meant.
I refuse to get into an argument/discussion about this too much in depth because I believe it is beyond the capacity of complete human understanding.
(It’s interesting because I was just reading Romans this morning and wrestling with this in my own mind)
I firmly believe that salvation, and indeed everything else ever, is controlled by God. Nothing exists apart from His will; honestly that would defy the definition of existence since God is the only fully independent essence that exists. However, I cannot give up the idea that we have a choice. How can we claim that we love God and that God loves us if we are forced to adore and worship Him? That is literally impossible by the definition of Love.
Frankly, if love is taken from the salvation equation, there’s a serious problem with our faith. God is love, but if there isn’t any love, then where is God? We become fools with a false hope. However, if God’s sovereignty is equally taken from the salvation equation, there’s an identical, serious problem with our faith. How can God be who He is without having complete control? It’s against His nature; where is God? We become fools with a false hope in a God that does not exist.
And so, I am at the point where I have faith in God’s sovereignty. I know that nothing happens apart from His will. I also understand that in some way I chose to follow God. I can’t let love go; that is religion. I can’t let sovereignty go; that is death. Either way, my God is removed and I am left alone…
Once again, I cannot go beyond that because it is beyond my understanding, but not my faith
ben
Hello,
I have a few responses on the things mentioned on this site. First and for most, the Bible says that there would be a major deception that could even deceive the elect (Mark 13:22). The important word in the phrase is “possible” which comes from the greek word, Dunatos, meaning able or could. In the phrase “if it were possible, even the elect”, the “it were” is not in the original greek (although I am confident that God is the one who placed it there to allow us to know that not all the elect would be deceived). Anyway, as I was saying, the Bible clearly mentions that it is possible for the elect (those who are chosen by God and saved by His grace) to be deceived. Therefore to place all those who follow a false doctrine under the catergory “damned” is against the Word of God. The judaisers mentioned in the book of Colosians, speaking of the Colosian Heresy, had deceived many of the elect; yet they, even though they followed a false doctrine, did not lose their salvation. Jesus Christ saves. No one here is able to save a soul, only Jesus Christ. Therefore, although false teachers and doctrines are present in this world (in about EVERY SINGLE church), that does not separate us from the grace of God and the love of Jesus Christ. If we want to know the truth, let the Holy Spirit speak to you the truth and have Him confirm it undeniably by His Word. I could say that all catholics are lost and will go to hell, but that simply is not true. I have met many catholics who, although they believe many false doctrines, have accepted Jesus Christ as their Lord and Savior with a believing and repentant heart. Therefore, it is not for you to judge nor is it for you to condemn a group of people. If you truly want to glorify God in what you do, preach Christ and Christ alone. But do not say that those who have varying beliefs are all bound to go to hell. The ONLY time what you say is true is when the false doctrine affects salvation of those who beleive it. If they were to beleive that you are saved by works, THEN you can talk false doctrines that lead to eternal death. But, again, do not condemn.
In Christ,
Nathaniel Gardner
Hello,
Now, concerning the grace of Jesus Christ I have a few things to say. God is all powerful and knows everything. He knows all who will be saved and knows all who will go to hell. However, God would not be an impartial God (as 1 Peter says) if He were to choose those who are called and choose those who are damned. The wicked are created for the day of evil, yes! However, God makes it VERY clear in His word that HIS WILL is for all to be saved and for none to perish. Because God knows everything, He CANNOT help but know those who will perish and those who will be saved. Predestination is a FACT, but not as many people take it. Predestination is God’s plan and purpose for those He KNOWS will be saved, not for those who He chose to be saved. God is a perfectly efficient God, and those who come to Him, He will call Those He calls to serve Him, He will use. And those He will use will bring others to Him. John 3:16 does not say “For God so loved the elect that He gave His only begotten Son, that when they believe in Him they will not perish but have everlasting life.” THAT is a false doctrine and teaching. Rather, it says “For God so loved the WORLD that He gave His only begotten Son that WHOEVER believes in Him will not perish but have everlasting life.” Jesus leaves salvation open to any and all who call upon His name. For those of you who read this, make sure that you are diligently seeking out the truth through reading of the Word, through prayer, but MOST importantly, through LISTENING to the still, small voice of God. The Holy Spirit will teach you all that you need to know, if you will simply submit to God and listen to the Spirit. If I offended any of you, I am sorry that I did that; however, I will not appologize for preaching truth. It is my duty as a child of God and as a servant to the Most High King that I do this.
In Christ,
Nathaniel
Hello…. Still waiting for you to comment on my post… Im assuming your going to retract your statement.
About the guy above that said we have a choice, of course we do, but our choices are bound by our sinful nature, unless we are regenerated by the Spirit of God, which enables us to choose Him.
Mr. Patterson, you speak correctly. Not only does it enable us, but the Bible states we will surely without fail repent and come to God.
John 10:27
My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me:
But the fact of the matter is this: Our sinful nature is what is preventing EVERYONE from going to heaven. If you want to talk about sin, then EVERYONE is going to hell. The ONLY reason why….and listen to this well….THE ONLY REASON why anyone goes to heaven is by the grace of God. God gave them a choice, the sin is paid for by the blood of Jesus Christ. Therefore, our sinful nature can never keep us from getting saved, but rather it is what allows us to have the opportunity for salvation. Because without a penalty, there would be no need for a sacrifice and if no need for a sacrifice, then no need for Jesus. You must not forget grace. Nor must you forget the mercy of God. We DO, INDEED, make a choice of whether to accept Jesus Christ or not, as for our sinful nature–it has been paid for in blood. Regeneration comes AFTER we choose God, not before. The Holy Spirit is only promised to the saved, not those who are going to be saved. Therefore to say that the Holy Spirit changes a person BEFORE salvation is anti-Biblical. I am not saying that the Holy Spirit does NOTHING before salvation, but I am saying that regeneration does not occur before salvation.
In Christ,
Nathaniel
“But the fact of the matter is this: Our sinful nature is what is preventing EVERYONE from going to heaven. If you want to talk about sin, then EVERYONE is going to hell. The ONLY reason why….and listen to this well….THE ONLY REASON why anyone goes to heaven is by the grace of God. God gave them a choice, the sin is paid for by the blood of Jesus Christ. Quote “Therefore, our sinful nature can never keep us from getting saved, but rather it is what allows us to have the opportunity for salvation. Because without a penalty, there would be no need for a sacrifice and if no need for a sacrifice, then no need for Jesus. You must not forget grace. Nor must you forget the mercy of God. We DO, INDEED, make a choice of whether to accept Jesus Christ or not, as for our sinful nature–it has been paid for in blood. Regeneration comes AFTER we choose God, not before. The Holy Spirit is only promised to the saved, not those who are going to be saved. Therefore to say that the Holy Spirit changes a person BEFORE salvation is anti-Biblical. I am not saying that the Holy Spirit does NOTHING before salvation, but I am saying that regeneration does not occur before salvation.”
Your logic is odd, this makes no sense. Having the SPIRITUALLY DEAD (Eph 1&2) NATURE, which is what I mean by the sinful nature, is what keeps unsaved man from coming to God. The saved man is made ALIVE IN CHRIST, and no longer has the SPIRITUALLY DEAD nature, but is made ALIVE IN CHRIST. We are REGENERATED by the Holy Spirit. We now indeed live in a BODY that tempts us to sin, (Romans 7) yet the SPIRIT is made alive.
Your ‘grace’ is contingent on the person’s accepting or choosing it, yet scripture again and again states that man by nature does not want it and won’t come, Jn 8:34, Rom. 6:17-18, 8:7-8, 1Cor. 2:14, Jn 6:44, 6:63-65 to name a few. And you are saying they must perform this to be saved. This is not of grace, but of a human work, of human action, that qualifies them to be saved, whether they do this of themselves or as a result of a mixture of the Spitit’s operations and man’s cooperation as you allude to, it is still man’s part that qualifies himself for salvation or not according to your view. Regeneration is being made alive, and nowhere does the scripture state that people are made something like ‘only half spiritually dead’ so they can choose and then be made fully alive.
Your ‘regeneration’ is the result of a human work, or if you wish, the spirit plus a human work, or let’s call it ‘grace plus works’. If you don’t do that work, you will perish according to your view. In our view, God enables us to choose him, and regeneration is not a result of man’s intellect, wisdom, or prudent choice. “How much smarter art thou, that thou dost choose when others didst not”.
“The Holy Spirit is only promised to the saved, not those who are going to be saved. Therefore to say that the Holy Spirit changes a person BEFORE salvation is anti-Biblical.”
Acts 2:38 “Peter replied, “Repent and be baptized, every one of you, in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins. And you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit. 39 The promise is for you and your children and for all who are far off—for all whom the Lord our God will call.”
There is an outward call of the gospel, which many recieve, and an inward call, which only the elect recieve. If this promise in Acts was made to everyone that heard the gospel call it would be ineffectual. This promise is specificly stated to be for ALL whom the Lord our God shall call. The Holy Spirit INDEED is promised to the elect, those CALLED of God. If we repent, of course it is because we have been regenerated, and the focus here is not the initial act of regeneration, but of the gift of the Holy Spirit, that he is GIVEN and remains with us always, and SEALS us until the day of redemption. God does not speak to us from his heavenly, divine perspective when addressing us in common speach in common situations as we see here in Acts. In this instance He tells us what our responsibilities are, and the result if we do them. However, the technical details are given us as God reveals them in the Epistles, which look at things and explain things from God’s perspective, not man’s perspective, as is shown here.
You build your theology on a man-centered, lop-sided superficial view of texts located in a section of scripture that does not explain the whole details of God’s operations. To accurately study scripture, you must distiguish between what TYPE of literature it is, and the PURPOSE of it. To deny other sections of scripture, that explain such things in more detail, and that are indeed written for that purpose, is to merely find prooftexts for an already pre-concieved bias. Other sections that deal with this are: Ephesians Chapter 1 and 2, Romans 4:17, 8:7-8, 9:10-16 and Colossians 2:13-14, which teaches that we were MADE ALIVE (regenerated) while we were DEAD IN OUR SINS. Since you have shown no understanding what that means, and merely state that we are all dead in our sins, unfortunately this is like waving my arms in the air and shouting yet you won’t actually hear a word of it.
Brian, your words ring true against harsh comparison with Scripture.
“By grace alone are ye saved through faith and that not of yourselves (not your choice, not your actions of any sort), it is the gift of God, not of works, lest any man should boast.”
We choose, after the Holy Spirit of God forcibly raises our self-hellbent souls from their dead, rotting in sin-state into a state of life in Him, then He irresistibly draws us to Himself. (John 10:27) So we choose, but only because we are ordained to choose nothing else. Our will is freed from sin, and is a willing servant of Jesus Christ forevermore.
“Predestination is God’s plan and purpose for those He KNOWS will be saved, not for those who He chose to be saved.”
This, shows a salvation that is based on God’s foreknowledge of man’s WORKS, and is therefore rejected. Eph.2:8, 2Tim. 1:8-9, Jn.6:29, Phil.1:29, 1Cor.1:27-29, Luke 18:9-14.
When the Bible says that God KNOWS all things, of course he also KNOWS that NONE of mankind would EVER CHOOSE Him unless he reached out and CHOSE them from before the creation of the world, Eph. 1:4. Well now, that’s odd… YOU say God didn’t CHOSE them, yet the Bible says it does… how odd.
“Jesus leaves salvation open to any and all who call upon His name.” Of course he does, and this you mistakenly use as some call to your “duty” based on the “truth”, yet careful examination of scripture shows you to be in error and misinformed.
Yes… THROUGH faith… Not BY faith. God himself is the author and finisher of our faith. Regeneration preceeds faith. Nathaniel (my brother
!) I do believe that John 3:16 is an offer to all and not only the elect. But the problem is that no one “not even one” person will come (John 3:18). We all love the darkenss instead. But for those of us that DO come to the light. it is only because it was brought forth by God Himself ( John 3:21) and not because of any choice we made. I was dead in my sins. My spirit was dead and without hope until God regenerated me by reaching into my heart of stone and pulled it out and replaced it with a heart of flesh. The best example of this is the valley of the dry bones.
Also… I think it best if this conversation be continued on either Brians site or Nathaniel’s. This Andrew Bain is a hyper calvinist and will do nothing short of casting Nathaniel into hell…
Let’s do it on Mike’s site!!! I call Pigpile on Mike!!!!!!! LOL
Okay, I read what you posted, it is the same thing I posted, just longer and directed at me…what you are accusing me of saying is what I thought YOU were saying. I thought you said that God chooses who will be saved and who will not. And I was saying that it is a choice and that we are regenerated when we get saved, not BEFORE. That is what I was saying. And what I said is not twisted, nor is it a false interpretation of the Bible. What I said was right and I guess what you said was right. Perhaps we just misunderstood each other. And to the owner of this site, why haven’t you replied to what I have posted? Still waiting for your response. MC_Shann, I totally agree, beacuse the Bible says that the Holy Spirit must draw us. It is God who gives us faith, hope, love, grace, mercy, and righteousness. God, ultimately is the sole reason why anyone is saved, because they are first called. However, many who are called reject. And it is a firm belief of mine that God does anything and everything to get an individual’s attention so that they can be saved. The Bible specifically says God wills all to be saved. I am not arguing with any of you, this is how I learn and this is how I get more familiar with God’s Word apart from reading it. People best explain what they believe when defending it
.
In Christ,
Nathaniel
“And I was saying that it is a choice and that we are regenerated when we get saved, not BEFORE.”
I appreciate your zeal, but this statement is incorrect. A man that is dead spiritualy is DEAD. He cannot believe. He can not desire salvation, his dead nature hates it, again I refer to Jn 8:34, Rom. 6:17-18, 8:7-8, 1Cor. 2:14, Jn 6:44, 6:63-65.
“MC_Shann, I totally agree, beacuse the Bible says that the Holy Spirit must draw us.”
When we are drawn, it is not a process that makes the spiritually dead person’s nature neutral, and able to believe. There is no scriptural support for that anywhere in the Bible. We are regenerated or we are not. We are made alive, or we are not. God’s drawing us to confession of the truth and sanctification in our lives come from the result of His regenerating power that He worked in us. Again, as shown in the verses above the spiritually dead man is not able or willing to do those things.
“God, ultimately is the sole reason why anyone is saved, because they are first called. However, many who are called reject.”
Again you have to use all of the scripture that deals with “the call” or “called” to formulate doctrine about it. There is an outward call and an inward call according to scripture. The outward call of the gospel is rejected by the spiritually dead. The inward call is accepted by the elect. And BTW, God giving people a chance at saving themselves is not the same as God actually saving them. A chance = grace plus works… grace = actually saving.
“And it is a firm belief of mine that God does anything and everything to get an individual’s attention so that they can be saved. The Bible specifically says God wills all to be saved.”
Of course, even though we are elect, God MUST get our attention, and exhorts us to believe. The spiritually dead do not lose the obligation to believe; as it is the moral and right thing to do. All are COMMANDED to believe because it is their moral obligation to believe and it is also an evil thing not to believe. When you speak of God “wills” you have to distinguish something here. God ‘wills’ that we all obey Him, yet sometimes we do not obey his will. In the same way this ‘will’ of God by the spiritually dead is not done because they refuse to do what is morally right. But God’s ETERNAL will, His will in ELECTION, is always done. You see we have to distinguish in what way God is willing something. Revealed will, or decreed will that is based on a divine plan? Careful study has to be done with words, and shoddy or misguided thinking can lead to error.
“I am not arguing with any of you, this is how I learn and this is how I get more familiar with God’s Word apart from reading it. People best explain what they believe when defending it.”
That’s great and I would expect nothing else. I grew up with Arminian theology and questioned every word the dutch reformed threw at me. I did not believe them at first at all, and it’s right to question every aspect of a thing, otherwise we are just following what someone else tells us. Again, I appreciate your zeal but some things you say I just can’t agree with, and you can be sure I will do my best to explain myself in detail whenever asked by anybody.
I’m sure that I could think of something pithy to say, but instead I’m going to get down to brass tacks right off the bat. You’re a total fucking nut, aren’t you? You disgust me.
Now, since the glove has been thrown down, the challenge issued as it were, I expect some adequate response. Please spare me your false pity, and don’t dare say that ‘you’ll pray for me’. Because that will only make my jeering laughter at your stupidity all the more worthwhile.
Brian,
I appreciate your humility and understand, that is a lot more than what most Christians give. I understand your point of view, and I know you understand I believe differently. But that shouldn’t be a dividing line between us, after all, we are both Christians. God bless.
In Christ,
Nathaniel
Nathaniel,
As you say, the issue could just be dropped. But there are painful ramifications of your theology that make it difficult/hard to do that…for example, if man must choose God to be saved, what of the little ones? Infants? Aborted and stillborn? Those who cannot even understand such a choice before their death? Those who cannot pray the prayer? Would you give abortionists the right to send unborn to hell as well as murder them?
And the Bible speaks of the age of accountability. It is at the moment of conception. The moment you come into existence, you are a sinner and bound for hell.
I have always had a deep passion for the unborn. But even without that, how can anyone expect a true believer to accept any sort of belief that gives abortionists the sovereign right to not only murder babies, but decide their eternal destiny? How can that be possible in the mind of one who accepts the truth?
Would you take the sovereign choice of a man’s eternal destiny from the Sovereign and give it to yourself? Would you take the sovereign choice of the eternal existence of an unborn child from the Sovereign and give it to a murderer?
In His Name,
James