March 6, 2006
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Brian Patterson has made some serious accusations. None of them are true.
He writes,
===”To me it looks like you have two errors. One that regeneration
comes AFTER assent. Secondly, that true assent doesn’t carry with it a
change in an idividual’s heart’s desires and therefore behaviour.”===My response: I do NOT believe regeneration comes after assent. I affirm that
regeneration is God giving a person assent. This is why I wrote in my
earlier post that….“Scripture … teaches that regeneration is ONLY the Holy Spirit giving someone a change of mind about the gospel.”
And I used the following verses:
—”the dead SHALL HEAR THE VOICE of the Son of God: and they that hear shall live.” Jn 5:25
—Paul says: “for in Christ Jesus I begot you THROUGH THE GOSPEL” 1 Cor 4:15-17
—”Being born again, not of corruptible seed, but of incorruptible, BY THE WORD of God.” 1 Pet 1:23
And I also wrote that, “regeneration is simply God [the Holy Spirit] “begetting by the word”"
Next up, you say that I deny assent doesn’t carry with it a change in an individual’s heart. You write,
===”To
me it looks like you have two errors. One that regeneration comes AFTER
assent. Secondly, that true assent doesn’t carry with it a change in an
idividual’s heart’s desires and therefore behaviour.”===My comment: I do AFFIRM that ALL believers immediately love God AFTER they assent. Here’s what I wrote in my original post,
“Of
course, the moment someone believes the gospel they will love God,
because they know they are are justified. So, yes, there is an
immediate love that believers have when they first believe.”And I also wrote,
“Now, what about love, joy, and peace in believing? Do all believers have these? Yes, these are “the fruits of the Spirit.” “
And again, I affirmed that,
“And the moment someone knows they are justified from all things, they will REJOICE.”
So I heartily agree with this Scripture (that was in my original post)….
“sanctify them BY THE TRUTH”, Jn 17.
“sanctified, BY FAITH that is toward Me.” Acts 26:18
“as newborn babes desire the pure soul-nourishing milk [THE BIBLE], that you may GROW BY IT” 1 Pet 2:2
And
last of all — God the Holy Spirit. I believe that He is the reason why
one man assents and another does not. God the Holy Spirit CONVICTS the
believer’s conscience that the Bible is true. It was Him who “raised
Jesus from the dead” (Rom 8:11) that raises the spiritually dead.Paul
declares to the Corinthians “…you were washed, but you were
sanctified, but you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus, AND
IN THE SPIRIT of our God.”Most Calvinists deny the power of
the Holy Spirit. Owen, as I pointed out in my previous post, taught
that there are believers can have a faith that contains “no assurance”,
“little comfort”, and which “doubts all things”. Here is the original
quote from “the greatest Puritan”,===” When the saints enter
into rest … Faith shall be heightened into vision, as was proved
before; which doth not destroy its nature, but cause it to cease as
unto its manner of operation towards things invisible. If a man have a
weak, small faith in this life, with LITTLE EVIDENCE AND NO ASSURANCE,
so that HE DOUBTS OF ALL THINGS, QUESTIONS ALL THINGS, and HATH NO
COMFORT from what he doth believe; if afterward, through supplies of
grace, he hath a mighty prevailing evidence of the things believed, is
filled with comfort and assurance; this is not by a faith or grace of
another kind than what he had before…===”
[http://www.reformed.org/books/owen/vol7/spiritual_006.html]I want NOTHING TO DO with unbelievers like John Owen.
Brian, do you?
Andrew Bain
Sydney, Australia
Comments (8)
Thanks for the response Andrew. I do love your knack for inflating things with capital letters and dramatic language… lol. You also neglected to mention how I said this:
“I could be wrong but to me it looks as if you fail on these two points, forgive me for being so suspicious, but I really think this is the case.”
Now when I say I could be wrong, this in my mind pretty much takes it out of the ‘serious accusation’ catagory. But through discussion I wanted to make sure if my observations were right or maybe I wasn’t looking at things the right way. After all, if you can’t take the heat, get out of the kitchen, you know?
Andrew, you are looking rather like a whiner though, I’d rather discuss NOT SHOUT, (like that) you know? Man, even if people agree with you, you still turn them off. Now let me study your response so I can try to grasp what you are saying. By the way I’m doing well at the moment though out of a job at present.
“Now, what exactly is the [regeneration] that causes someone to believe? Most Calvinists teach that regeneration is an “infusion of grace” or a “change in dispositions of the heart”. They say that this moral changes occurs in someone [BEFORE they have faith]. This has lead to all sorts of heresies.”
While I disagreed with the language of ‘infusion of grace’ since infusion has to do with Roman Catholic teachings on ‘works plus grace salvation’ heresy, I thought that you were also arguing that regeneration comes after they have faith as you can see with the brackets above. It seemed to me to be saying that, so that’s where that “accusation” came from. I’ll keep looking at your response, thanks.
Brian,
You should only misquote dead people that can not defend themselves like Mr. Bain. I am shocked that he actually answerd you…. I wrote a well thought out response to something he said about God hates the reprobate. My only assumption is that he realized he was wrong and in his pride refuses to recant on his blog’s. If he recants it will make him a false teacher himself. So he is just hoping that I go away.
I believe Mr. Bain seems inflating Brian’s “serious accusation” out of proportion. If a person expresses uncertainty implied by seems or looks or appearance and mentions that he could be mistaken, it is not an accusation.
Where’s the love for your neighbor, Mr. Bain? (And it is not just in merely correcting a person whom you believe entertains heresy or is caught in sin.)
And as usual, you strongly seem to not quote and not consider the correct context of Owen, Calvin, and, I venture to say, the rest of us Covenanters.
And as usual, you strongly seem to not quote and not consider the correct context of Owen, Calvin, and, I venture to say, the rest of us Covenanters.
Brian Patterson asks:
“So does regeneration produce only assent? If someone claims that regeneration produces more than just assent, is that person unsaved? “
“To answer your first question: [YES,] regeneration is simply God “begetting by the word”. Of course, the moment someone believes the gospel they will love God, because they know they are are justified.”
And elsewhere you say,
“Scripture … teaches that regeneration is ONLY the Holy Spirit giving someone a change of mind about the gospel.”
I’m having trouble with this. I asked does regeneration produce only assent, then you say yes. But then you say BUT, they will then love God… etc. So you say regeneration is only assent. After that you then say people will love God. I understand the scriptures to say regeneration is being made spiritually alive. We are first spiritually dead, then made spiritually alive. A change of a man’s spiritual nature. This change I believe of course causes one to assent. But that’s just it… it’s this new nature that causes us to assent. It’s a new nature that not only gives a change of mind, but a change of nature, desires and behavior. Another way to say it is it’s the new nature given by God that causes us to love God, not assenting. Assent is a result, not the cause. Since it is a result of course it includes all those verses you mention, and our first action is to assent to the gospel, it’s the first thing we do when saved.
It seems to me some of these reformer’s weird views on grace cause you to go around building a case that minimizes anything man does to an extent that looks fabricated. The obedience and everything the elect do is only because of God… but that doesn’t mean they don’t do anything. And their are no requirements that we have to do in our own efforts to be saved, but for our regeneration, salvation, and assent to be real God has to do things that prove it to be real, and not fake. Regeneration, being given a new nature causes assent, obedience, and love… why it is necessary to say that regeneration only causes assent that in turn then causes love? It sounds kind of convoluted.
In a similar way you argue that faith is only assent, but after that assent I assume if it is true assent it results in obedience? How much different is this than saying a true faith that is given by God comes from a new nature? Why do you make this distinction? I am really having a hard time understanding it.
Eph. 2:1-10 Emphasises a nature that is disobediant before regeneration and spiritually dead, Romans 8:5-16 also talks about a sinful nature that is death, and though does not specificly mention regeneration it infers it in vs. 10 where it says the spirit is made alive. Here it isn’t talking about being given assent first and then love and obedience that follow, it’s just having all of those things by being given this new nature. And none of these things are grounds for the imputation of Christ’s righteousness, but the result of it.
So if this nature is given us on the only grounds of the imputation of Christ’s righteousness, how does that make ‘salvation by works’ if someone was to say that true faith consisted of more than just assent but also a nature that desired to obey? Because that’s what I believe the scriptures to be saying.
I agree that we should not respond when asked “how do you know you are saved” by saying, ‘by looking at our works’ (!) because any unregenerate can make his own “goody goody list” and claim to be saved when he is indeed a child of hell. The place to look is the cross where all of our sins were laid on Christ and punished so that they would be imputed to us. But true faith includes assent AND a new nature, one that would want to obey… surely, no?
I believe regeneration produces faith. I believe I would define faith as the spiritual ability to truly believe the gospel. I say “spiritual” ability because of an emphasis in scripture that says before salvation we are not able to believe the things of God, because they are spiritually discerned, and also mentions coming from death to life at the moment of salvation. The Bible does mention John the Baptist lept in his mother’s womb for joy at the sound of Mary’s voice, so I wonder also if John the Baptist had this faith in the womb even before he was able to articulate it with a grown mouth, brain, etc. Also the same with the prophet that was set apart from the womb. This faith I believe comes from a new nature, one that has been made alive. I do know that the reformers confused faith with the intellect, and I tend to not believe that but think more along the lines of a new birth, being given a new nature.
I really wouldn’t want John Owen to structure everything my church believed. You could use part of his writings like you used clarke’s, but I don’t think it is right on many points.
Also I think it’s odd how in order to count someone as a believer, they have to go around saying everyone is unsaved. I question the salvation of many people… and what I usually do is discuss things to a point where I show their dependence on works. I insist to them that the gospel demands we are not saved by our works, and if they truly trust in their works, they will not be saved, and for their sake I hope that they do not do that. I don’t like to make bald statements like “all arminians are unsaved” because I want to show them why and how they may be trusting in their own works, I just tell them what it is, I don’t make the final judgement, God will do that.
Also Andrew, I would appreciate it if you would kindly edit your title, “Brian Patterson has made some serious accusations” As my wife could easily come by and read your website, and she could become very afraid, thinking that someone might try to come and attack us because of the title you have posted. She’s a very sensetive person and I know her well, and would become very afraid if she was to read it. Please edit your title.