January 24, 2005

• “SUFFICIENT FOR
  NONE”
  TIM ELDER AND UNIVERSAL
  ATONEMENT

                 
                 
                 
                 
                 
                 
  

   

  Today, I received the following post on the
  “InSearchOfHyperCalvinism” yahoo group. The moderator of this group, namely Tim
  Elder, believes that both Arminians are tolerant Calvinists are unregenerate.
  Yet out of the very same mouth, came the following blasphemy:
   
  “Perhaps you’re getting into  ‘sufficent’
  versus efficent’. Christ DID die for the sins of the whole world  –of
  men. He purchased the WHOLE of the fallen creation with His sacrifice
  and  thus is over the WHOLE creation right now as King of Kings and
  Lord of Lords. It  is on that basis that the reprobate offend by
  trampling on His sacrifice  for them. That God keeps them in such a
  state (non-regeneracy, in which they can  know nothing of the truth of
  Christ) is without question. Nevertheless their error is
  real and
  God lightly esteemed by them. They go to hell for  simultaneously not
  being born again AND (because they aren’t new creation and  haven’t
  been
  born again), can’t know anything of Christ. To say that Christ
  only  died for the elect leaves the sin of men against other men as
  sufficing for  their punishment in hell. But the offense is against
  GOD–against Christ on the  cross–not men. All would have been
  forgiven if not for the blasphemy against  the Holy Spirit by denying
  that Jesus Christ is the divine Word and only name  under heaven by
  which and into which elect souls are saved and born  again.”
  
   
  What did Elder just say? Elder said that if
  Christ only died for the sins of the elect, then the reprobate do not deserve
  hell. In other words, if God does not give the reprobate the opportunity to
  perform the damnable heresy of denying the gospel, then that reprobate person
  cannot be cast into hell. Thus, Elder thoroughly conditions eternity on the
  temporal. “All would have been forgiven if not for …..denying …Jesus
  Christ” says Elder — echoing the words of John Murray “if only the
  reprobate would believe…they would be saved”. Elder, most definitely
  does NOT believe that whether a person goes to heaven and hell is
  unconditional. As we will soon see, Elder must condition salvation on the
  sinner, since Christ died for everyone (according to Elder).
   
  Furthermore, just think about what Elder deliberately
  omitted in his comments above, (and continues to do so below). Elder omits the
  gospel truth that God imputes Christ’s righteousness to God’s people upon
  regeneration. I mean, after all, could God send someone to hell, if he didn’t
  first allow them to reject the offer of imputed righteousness? Wouldn’t that be
  unjust! .. God only sending His Son to obey the law for His people! (says Elder).
  So, why does Elder think the reprobate go to hell? “They go to hell
  for  simultaneously not being born again AND (because they aren’t new
  creation and  haven’t been born again), can’t know anything of
  Christ.”, says Elder. The reprobate go to hell for their inability to
  perform certain works?? This is “simultaneously” (to use Elder’s own
  expression) a combination of justification-by-works and doctrinal regeneration.
  Because Elder’s “christ” died for everyone, Elder cannot say that his
  “christ” makes the difference between heaven and hell. Elder must
  search for a new ground, a novel condition for justification. So he turns to
  the gift of faith, as the basis for meriting heaven.
   
  To brothers and sisters on this list: meditate about what
  we will sing in heaven. We will sing: “Great and marvelous are Your works,
  Lord God Almighty, righteous and true are Your ways, King of the saints. ”
  (Rev 15:3). We will sing about Christ’s work, and how it saved us, *in and of
  itself*.  We will also sing: “Worthy is the Lamb having been
  slain to receive the power and riches and wisdom and strength and honor and
  glory and blessing.” (Rev 5:12). Why can we sing these songs? Is it
  because of any knowledge or regeneration we had during our lives? May it never
  be. The knowledge of the gospel is a *gift* *from* heaven NOT a *grounds* *for*
  heaven. What is our groundings for heaven? Read Rev 7:14. Rev 7:14 says that
  the elect’s robes are washed and whitened with the blood of the Lamb.
  
   
  Compare Rev 13:8 to Tim Elder. Rev 13:8 says
  that people follow other “christs” because their names are not
  written in the book of life of the Lamb having been slain from the foundation
  of the world. Elder on the other hand, divides the book of life (election) from
  the Lamb (the atonement). Elder wants the Lamb (the atonement) to be made for
  the reprobate. Yet, Rev 14:4 says that the elect were “redeemed from among
  men as a firstfruit to God and to the Lamb”. Christ’s death *separates*
  His people from the world. Christ’s death *divides* the elect – they are NOT
  united with the reprobate in any sense by Christ’s atonement. Indeed, the elect
  are the bride prepared to be married to Christ (Rev 19:7). And NO, the reprobate
  have NOT been prepared in this glorious manner. The reprobate have NO
  sufficiency to rejoice in. There was NOT a single drop of Christ’s blood shed
  for the reprobate, in any “sense” whatsoever.
   
  Elder Quote #2
  “Then He dies in their stead
  and they STILL hate him wrongfully. But  He directly says that if He
  had not come and SPOKEN  to them or done the  works they
  
  would not have been judged guilty. So He came specifically to MAKE
  THEM guilty. So that what they had formerly done was insufficient to make
  them 
  guilty–He had regarded the sacrificial system for
  them that He Himself had  established, not as perfecting them but in
  respect to when He would fulfill the  Law
  Himself. It was
  the cross itself and their steadfast refusal (as only
  the non-regenerate are done through by Satan..) to come to Him and
  acknowledge him 
  that made and makes them guilty forever in
  hell with no possibility of reprieve or forgiveness.”
   
  Elder blasphemies and continues with his corrupt scales,
  by which he measures the biblical concept of sufficiency. There are two points
  of error, here. We (I speak to any brothers and sisters) are quite familiar
  with the first, that is, making Christ’s death sufficient for all. As we know,
  this really makes Christ’s death sufficient *in and of itself* for no one! For
  if one person ends up in hell for whom Christ died, it shows that the potency
  of His death was too weak to satisfy God’s demand for justice.
   
  Secondly, Elder refuses to add to his corrupt scales the
  sin of Adam. Elder does not understand imputation — he is captivated by the
  humanism of inherent worth. What do I mean by “inherent worth”? I
  mean that Elder cannot accept that many will perish because of Adam’s sin, that
  was imputed to them (ie Romans 5:17).
   
  Furthermore, Elder cannot accept that actions and events wholly *outside* (and
  not inherent to) a person, actually determine that person’s eternity. Elder
  does not believe that what happened in 33 AD could save/damn someone in 2005
  AD. So, Elder talks about the reprobates failure to “come” and
  “acknowledge” Christ — words that reek of Arminianism. It’s man, the
  sinner, who must do the works in order to be saved (says Elder.)
   
  Notice, again, that Elder omits the gospel truth of
  imputed righteousness. Elder argues that Christ died for the reprobate “to
  make them guilty”. This becomes even more absurd when we consider Christ’s
  active obedience. Elder must logically say, that for His entire life, Christ
  was obeying the Law of God, for the reprobate. Elder must say that Christ for
  the reprobate “emptied Himself, taking the form of a slave, having become
  in the likeness of men and being found in fashion as a man, He humbled Himself,
  having become obedient until death, even the death of a cross”(Phi 2:7-8)
  for the reprobate. Elder must accept this logic, because Phi_2:7-8 and many
  other passages join the active and passive obedience of Christ together –
  Christ represented the SAME people in both points of obedience. In fact, Elder
  says that a reprobate person would read the Bible as such: “For He made
  the One who knew no sin to be sin for us, that we might become the REPROBATE of
  God in Him.” Clearly, whilst it may sound pious that “Christ died for
  the reprobate to damn the them”, this idea 1) denies the sufficiency of
  Christ to save 100% of those he died for 2) shifts the grounding of
  justification from Christ’s work alone, to another ground. Elder must make the
  grounding of justification the *gifts* given to the elect in this life
  (regeneration, gospel-knowledge). I say again: the knowledge of the gospel is a
  *gift* *from* heaven NOT a *grounds* *for* heaven. What is our groundings for
  heaven? Read Rev 7:14. Rev 7:14 says that the elect’s robes are washed and
  whitened with the blood of the Lamb.
  

   

  Elder Quote #3:
  “Christ purchased with His
  blood the keys to the totality of all creation–to include death and hell–not
  just heaven. Christ is then the ruler  and King
  over the
  Pagans as well and casts them into hell–having  overcome ALL
  principality for that very reason. Thus the cross was  SUFFICENT for
  all, but God only applied the blood to wash the elect as  EFFICENT as
  He purposed all along and cast his wrath on the vessels of  wrath.”
  
   
  Notice how Elder wants to pit the gifts of
  Christ’s work (faith and sanctification) against the objective accomplishment
  of Christ’s work (propitiations for sins). Elder hates the idea that Christ’s
  work ACTUALLY redeemed His people to God – Eternally redeems them, purges their
  conscience from dead works to serve the living God, gives them an eternal
  inheritance (Hebrews 9:12-15). Brothers and Sisters, Elder hates the fact that
  Christ’s death forgives us our trespasses, blots out the handwriting of ordinances
  against us and takes it out of the way (Colossians 2:13-14). Elder denies that
  Christ efficiently and eternally saves 100% of those for whom He was
  substituted.
   
  Elder also wants to rob Christ of
  His Sovereignty over creation. Christ isn’t entitled to demand obedience from
  every creature, if he didn’t die for them (says Elder). Elder believes that
  Christ only has “the keys to the totality of creation” if He shed His blood for
  every single person. It’s God’s “purpose all along” says Elder, to send His Son
  to propitiate for the reprobates sins and then to later “cast his wrath” on
  them.

   
  Well, let me leave you with a
  scenario. Picture a righteous king and judge who wanted to punish a wicked
  enemy for the crime of rebellion. The judge wanted to demonstrate his power and
  justice to all people in his land (Romans 9:22).
   
  Yet, at the same time, the judge’s sons had committed the same crime. The judge
  wants to show his mercy and compassion, and will do so by saving his sons from
  punishment (Romans 9:23). The judge/king will take the lashing for his sons,
  and save them from the penalty.
   
  In Tim Elder’s
  system, the judge would have to take the lashings for the wicked enemy, too.
  But guess what! The wicked enemy would then have to take the lashings himself.
  What a stupid “king”/“judge” Elder believes in.
   
  To return to the Bible: if Elder believes that on the cross Christ suffered for
  all the reprobate, then he must believe that as his “christ” was suffering for
  the sins of the reprobate, this included the reprobate already in hell. Did you
  understand what Elder believes? Elder believes that God was punishing “simultaneously”
  his “christ” and the reprobate in hell, for the same sin. Yet, out of the same
  mouth, Elder says his “christ’s” suffering was “sufficient” for these
  reprobate. My question for Elder: When it takes two people to pay the price for
  one sin – did one of those people sufficiently pay for it
  themselves??
   
  ACB
  PS I’m posting this
  on my blog — http://www.xanga.com/home.aspx?user=andrew_c_bain
  . I will post any responses too, from people on this
  list. 

  • 11:48 pm
  • 5 Comments