February 3, 2005
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BLESSED
INCONSISTENCY?
by Andrew C. Bain
andrewchristopherbain@bigpond.comFor I testify to them that they have zeal to God, but
not according to knowledge.Rom 10:2
For being ignorant of the righteousness of God, and seeking to establish
their own righteousness, they did not submit to the righteousness of God.Rom 10:3
Do
you believe in “blessed inconsistency”?
It is commonly said — by RC Sproul, for instance — that the Arminian may
inconsistently believe in justification by faith alone, as well as, for
example, conditional perseverance. Sproul says Arminians
are “saved by the
skin of their teeth”. He proposes that Arminians can believe that their
‘jesus christ’ who died for everyone without exception cannot save all
those for whom he died (those who end up in hell). Yet, Sproul says
that these Arminians can “inconsistently” believe that their ‘jesus
christ’s’ death and righteousness is sufficient to save His people,
without works of the Law. Does this make sense? Christ’s work alone is
sufficient for some people (those going to heaven) but not enough for
others (those in hell)? Read on.Sproul and others will point you to the fact that
some Arminians are very religious people. Sproul says they attend their
“churches” every week, they confess their sinfulness, and they
constantly tell their non-Christian friends that “‘jesus’ alone
saves”.But does the outward zealousness of some Arminians prove they are
saved? Does an Arminian sounding like a Calvinist “on their knees” in
prayer, prove they believe in God’s sovereignty? Does an Arminians reading
Matthew Henry and Charles Sprugeon prove that they are really believe in
sovereign grace? If you are a Calvinist reading this article — do you believe
that “deep down in their hearts”, some Arminians really DO believe
God’s sovereignty and salvation by Christ’s work alone?If you answered “yes” to that question, I want you to think
about the opposite situation: an Arminian attempting to prove that Calvinists
“deep down in their hearts” are really Arminians. Ironically, such an
Arminian would have a LOT of success!
“Anyone
arguing that Arminians who ”pray like Calvinists” are
saved, is forced to adopt the position that the Calvinists who preach like
Arminians (“Come to ‘jesus’”) or sing like Arminians (“Great
things he worketh, great things he has down, so loved us the world, that he
gave us his ‘son’…. who made an atonement for sins … that all may come
in”) are DEEP DOWN, “inconsistently” CURSED ARMINIANS.”
What about the “Reformed”
hymn books that include the Arminianism of the Wesleys?
What about the
Calvinists who say “Christ is dead for you”, and that “in a
sense” God loves and desires all men?What about the
Calvinists who say “come to Jesus” and tell you to read to works of
CS Lewis?What about those
Calvinists who say God will bless America if we meet certain conditions (ie God
will *respond*/*react* to human wills)?
The Arminian could say, quite rightly, that these so-called
Calvinists
have a “blessed inconsistency” (in the eye of the Arminian) and
really believe salvation is conditioned on the sinner. That is,
salvation where man (not Jesus Christ) determines the eternal destiny
of the soul.The Arminian could say that these Calvinists really believe man had to
“chose” “christ” to earn heaven, and these Calvinists
had just not seen the “logical implications” of the core of the
Arminian “gospel”. Thus, says that Arminian MOST Calvinist do believe in the
“glorious gospel of giving your life to ‘jesus’” and “asking the
‘holy spirit’ into your heart”. They have just not seen the “logical
implications” of the gospel. After all, we’re NOT saved by logic and
rationalism. NO, we are saved by “throwing ourselves at the feet of
‘christ’” and “feeling deep remorse for our sins” (says the
Arminian). Thus, says the Arminian: anytime you see a Calvinist preaching like
and Arminian (“Come to ‘jesus’”) or singing like an Arminians
(“Great things he worketh, great things he has down, so loved us the
world, that he gave us his ‘son’…. who made an atonement for sins … that
all may come in”), they are showing their true Arminian colors.Anyone
arguing that Arminians who ”pray like Calvinists” are
saved, is forced to adopt the position that the Calvinists who preach like
Arminians (“Come to ‘jesus’”) or sing like Arminians (“Great
things he worketh, great things he has down, so loved us the world, that he
gave us his ‘son’…. who made an atonement for sins … that all may come
in”) are DEEP DOWN, “inconsistently” CURSED ARMINIANS.For more information, please read this Bible study on 2
John 11.
Comments (36)
One thing is clear about those of you that subscribe to the “Christian Confession of Faith” from http://www.outsidethecamp.org. With respect to the statement “The Lord’s Supper and Baptism are the two sacraments given to the church by Jesus” you believe either:
(a) the statement is unbiblical
(b) the statement is extraneous
(c) the statement is something over which true Christians can disagree
Which is it?
I don’t disagree. I am a Calvanist. Now I don’t have a problem with some saying Christ offered his salvation “generally” to the non-elect. But since they were not the elect there is no way they would receive it. Since they were not given iresistible grace they by their natures always will reject the gospel. His death was in effect “effectualy” only for the elect. The damned are lost becasue sin has separated them from God only the blood of Christ can save them. But Paul said Jacob I loved and Esau I hated. In order for God to demonstrate His love he also must have needed to have some in whom to show His wrath. There are however, some saved who are not Calvanists because they are in fact elect even though wrong on this particular doctrine.
p.s. The only part man plays in his salvation is confession and believing. However, the confession and the ability to exercise faith are gifts from God so that they originate in God not in man. Man must confess Jesus as Lord but that confession did not originagte in him. So it is true to say, man plays no part in his own salvation. God did it all. Man cannot be saved without believing but man cannot believe unless he is elect.
It is my judgment that the folks at http://WWW.OUTSIDETHECAMP.ORG are outside the will of God. While I beleive much of their doctrinal statement it is evident to me that they are like he Pharisees of old. Calvanism taken to the extreme is heresy. There must be room for those who have not yet grown in their understandnig of the sovereignty of God. Given time and good bible teaching most any Christian can be persuaded to believe in election. But for all ti does nto happen overnight and for many it does nto even happen at conversion. Jsut for clarity – I am a 5 point Calvanist!
Andrew, I am a Calvinist. But your rants make me ashamed to give myself the same label you use. By saying such hateful things about people – some Christians, even! – who believe slightly differently than you, you are dragging yourself down to the level of people like Muslims. Is that the kind of Christian witness you want to be?
Andrew, you are not showing God’s love at all. You are showing hate. How many people will this piece point to God? How many unsaved people will read it and say “See, this proves Christians are no different. They’re just as nasty as everyone else.” I suggest the second number will be significantly higher.
Fortunately, God is above these things, and He will still call whom he chooses. But it’s a damning indictment upon you. Luke 17:1 – And he said to his disciples, “Temptations to sin are sure to come, but woe to the one through whom they come!”
1 John 3: 23-24 And this is his commandment, that we believe in the name of his Son Jesus Christ and love one another, just as he has commanded us… And by this we know that he abides in us.
If he is abiding in you, Andrew, your works certainly do not show it. You’d better listen up. Read the Bible, all of it, not just the parts that suit you.
Bro, thanks for the thoughtful comment you left on my guest book, unfortunately I just saw it today because I never check it. I agree with what you say about the Gospel that portrays the sovereignty of God is the Gospel portrayed in the bible, but to go to the extreme and say that one can only be saved by absolutely pure doctrine is akin to a “Calvinist Gnosticism.” Do I agree with John Wesley’s theology? Absolutely not, but to call into question his salvation is another issue. John Wesley, though he erred in theology, definitely proved his adoption by the works that exuded from his faith. I doubt the thief on the cross could elequently produce a systematic thelogy, but he was in paradise that very day nonetheless. This does not excuse the ignorance and abandoment of correct theology, but how many people at their conversion could thoughtfully articulate the Doctrines of Grace? Your advocation seems to logically end in an attainment of salvation, not by works, but by learning a correct theology, which is also a works salvation.
Andrew,
I have only read three of your posts and the ensuing comments, but even that much exposure to you has made me believe that your Xanga is a blot on Calvinists and your manner of promoting this wickedness via spamming is despicable.
You have been admonished several times, in a loving way, to stop speaking in such a arrogant, harsh, puffed up manner. And yet you continue.
I understand that you believe that you are holding to the truth, and insofar as you hold to the uncorrupted 5 points (as opposed to hyper-calvinism which you sprinkle lavishly throughout your posts, and is just as repugnant as 5 point Arminianism) I agree with you. But you can be right theologically, and completely wrong in the way you present it. You have NO JUSTIFICATION for the wicked, abrasive, railing spirit that is manifested in these posts.
You need to stop what you are doing, repent, and apologize to the people you have hurt. If you refuse to do this please stop calling yourself a Calvinist, and more importantly stop calling yourself a Christian in public. You are bringing far too much reproach on those important titles.
You are preaching a false gospel.
Be careful not make logic your god over Christ. There are many logical inconsistencies within good Christian theology. The God of of the bible is the God of logic, and he does what he wills with it. Also remember that though you may be convinced in your logical mind of something more certain then your belief in the Almighty, even your logic is tainted with sin. Paul speaks of many mysteries that were revieled in the new testament, but many are still kept secret. Don’t be presumptuous and step on God’s toes thinking with your tools of logic and rational thinking you can know all the Truths of God. I see this in many of your rantings, and urge caution.
hey there
interesting comment you left… it was a bit confusing so i did a bit of research.
i’m non-denominational, and i think its ok to have mild disagreements with other christians, but honestly, whats the point of all this bashing of arminians? we really get the point after you say it a few times…
I just now read the comment you left on my guestbook… I’m not a Calvinist, so I don’t know exactly how you believe. I don’t quite understand what the Arminians believe either. However, if Arminians don’t believe in the right Gospel, I don’t think you should bash them in public… there are a lot of denominations out there that I don’t agree with, but I’m not going to pinpoint where I think they’re wrong…
I think your approach on this is wrong… people are going to get the wrong idea of you, and worst of all, God. They’re going to see hate in you. They’re going to think all Christians are hating to those who do not carry their beliefs. That’s not showing God’s love. The world should see the love of Christ in you, not hate for those who are wrong.
Besides, if the Arminians do not believe in the true Gospel…
The more you should show love to them, so they may see the love of God in you, and there find the true Gospel.
thanks for inviting my to your blogring, but. . . I am afraid I am going to have to decline the offer. I would be ashamed and sinning if I were to join. While I believe that Christ died only for his chosen people I do not believe that He was on the cross cursing those who were trying to follow Him, but not getting it all the way. Arminians are not a weaker breathren, Christians are a body. No one person serves a bigger purpose than the other, the arm is no less important than the mouth. . . the rock on the bottom of a mountain is no less important than rock on the summit.
May the curses and traps that you have placed on your brothers and sisters fall upon you.
hello andrew. thank you for your e-mail. I have one request for you and that is that you would mail me and present me with your understnading of the gospel from schripture. i do request that you not send me any liks to any articles etc… but that you tell me what the goepel is as presented in the Word of God.
I do agree with you that if anyone who believes in a flase gospel is lost, however you must explain to me what, at least two things i am not clear on, what is the “gospel” and what is meant buy “false”
thank you greatly
In Christ.
Christopher.
i forgot one thing…. what is necessary for a person to believe to be saved? again no essays please….
Brother, thank you for the invite. to your blog. It looks like God has blessed you, so I’m looking forward to your posts :0)
Hey man sorry it took so long for me to reply. thanx for the invite to join the blog. ill hav to refuse though. I agree with a lot of these other commenters. While i dont usually label myself, i do hold to all five points because i see them in scripture. However, i am not goin to condem to hell those whom God has not givin the grace to realise these truths. I know many people who were saved into arminian churches, and later through bible study came to understand these doctrines. then they moved out of those churches into ones that where the truth is preached. but they were saved before they came to this understanding. I think hyper-calvinism is just as wrong as the armenian side, because it takes Biblical doctrines to an unbiblical extreme. Also, remember, we are commanded to ALWAYS act in love towards others, being humble. remember too, that paul rejoiced that whether in pretense or in truth, christ was preached.
Feel free to make any further discussion.
By His Grace,
daniel
I’m a bit confused as to your stance. I recieved an invitation to join your new blog-ring entitled “We speak peace to Arminians”, and yet you are apparently a supporter of outsidethecamp.org. Perhaps you’re just looking to polarize. Regardless, I have no desire to join a new Calvinist club. I love the doctrines of grace and praise God for their truth daily, but at the same time you appear to be only seeking to get into arguments based upon your form and apparently “tried and true” arguments from outsidethecamp.org. So thanks, but no thanks.
ummmm, Romans 10:2 is talking about Jews who did not acknowledge Christ, not armenians.
andrew_c_bain (http://www.xanga.com/andrew_c_bain) has invited you to join a Xanga Blogring!
Personal Message:
Most religion today that comes in the name of Christianity promotes a different gospel than the gospel of the Bible. They promote a “gospel” that conditions salvation in some part, in some way, to some degree, on the sinner. They promote a “gospel” that says that the difference between saved and lost, between heaven and hell, is not what Christ did but what the sinner does. They say that Christ did no more for those in heaven than He did for those in hell. This false gospel is damnable blasphemy. And if anyone preaches such a false gospel, no matter what his reputation or outward appearance, let him be accursed (Gal_1:8-9). Anyone who puts forth a “gospel” that bases at least some of salvation on the sinner, you know that God calls him accursed. He is not a Christian. If anyone does not abide in the doctrine of Christ, he does not have God (2Jo_1:9). If anyone will speak peace (will call the person a “brother in Christ”) to one who believes in a false gospel, he, too, is evil (1:11).
IF YOU DISAGREE WITH THE TRUTH ABOVE (WHICH I, ANDREW_C_BAIN BELIEVE), PLEASE
JOIN THE BLOGRING BELOW.
Keep predicating salvation based on one’s knowledge of the Atonement and whether one is kind enough to show others the errors and inconsistencies in their understanding.
You’re a prick, Andrew.
Hahaha. You’re rather defensive, Andrew. I was asking if you were attempting to polarize Calvinists by splitting into the two groups of those who support your ministry and those who do not. Perhaps then on the day of judgement you’ll have all of our xanga names as our damning proof.
Anyway, as I pointed out in my previous post, I have no desire to join a new Calvinist club. Another thing I mentioned in said post is that I don’t want to hear all of your planned and canned arguments. So please save them and my xanga from their presence.
Until God decides to show you the names in His book, I suggest you stop saying who is and isn’t saved. For 1700 years, we have defined a Christian as any individual who holds to the Nicean creed. Let’s take a look at that, shall we?
We believe in one God, the Father Almighty,
Maker of heaven and earth,
of all things visible and invisible.
(So far so good, huh? I believe Arminians hold to these)
And in one Lord Jesus Christ, the only-begotten Son of God
begotten of his Father before all worlds
God of God, Light of Light,
very God of very God,
begotten, not made, being of one substance with the Father;
by whom all things were made;
who for us and for our salvation
came down from heaven,
and was incarnate by the Holy Spirit of the virgin Mary,
and was made man;
and was crucified also for us under Pontius Pilate;
he suffered and was buried;
and the third day he rose again according to the Scriptures,
and ascended into heaven, and is seated at the right hand of the Father;
and he shall come again, with glory, to judge bothe the living and the dead;
whose kingdom shall have no end.
(Well, that was a lot to swallow, but it’s all true, isn’t it? And I’d say both Arminians, Calvinists, and you would hold to that)
And we believe in the Holy Spirit, the Lord and giver of life,
who proceeds from the Father and the Son;
who with the Father and the Son together is worshiped and glorified;
who spoke by the prophets:
and we believe in one holy catholic and apostolic church;
(a small c there, before anyone starts hyperventilating)
we acknowledge one baptism for the remission of sins;
(Baptists may rebaptize, but they believe that that was the only true baptism)
and we look for the resurrection of the dead,
and the life of the world to come. Amen
(the life of the world to come, huh? I thought the Christian Confession of Faith says we’re staying in heaven forever? What about the new earth?)
So basically, I find your tactics overly blunt and ultimately divisive. If you’re so convinced that Arminians are going to hell, go “speak peace” to them, convert them! If we believe that all shall not be saved, what are we doing standing around screaming at them that they’re going to hell?? Sure they aren’t, if we don’t go out there and evangelize. Didn’t Jesus tell us to baptize the nations rather than condemn them? I think that last part is His job.
Don’t email me again unless you’re willing to speak rationally.
I have no intention of carrying on a dialogue with someone who distorts the doctrine of election to the point where “he” has become a false religion. To debate with someone like you would be the height of futility. To suggest that a non-Calvanist (while they are clearly in error on that particular doctrine) could not possibly be saved is to set a standard for conversion foreign to the Bible. It seems to me that you enjoy controversy as much as you have distorted the truth. Goodbye. You are straining at a gnat while swallowing a camel.
i’ll be declining the offer too. not only is it not clear what your intent is with the seeming duality of the website coupled with the Blogring… but you’re also spewing the Truth of Scripture in a very hateful and rude manner. you’ve been repeatedly (and Scripturally, in my mind) rebuked here. you would do well to listen.
1. My name is not “Burkina”–that is my country of residence.
2. Your attitude is not Christlike.
3. You have yet to thoroughly support your divisive, unorthodox beliefs with properly exegeted Scripture (and yes, I have read your webpage).
4. I will not join your blogring because I think you are simply trying to divide the body of Christ, as opposed to explaining and teaching the truth.
5. As a result of 2, 3, and 4 above, I will discontinue any communication with you. Periodically I may drop by to see if your attitude changes and if you repent for the divisive, hateful things you have said. But until then, I cannot afford to waste the time to discuss “calvinism” and “who is truly saved” (as it it’s even possible for human to know) with someone who is apparently not really seeking the truth.
6. To the rest of my brothers and sisters who disagree with Mr. Bain: I have encountered people like him before, and they turned out to be merely psychology students doing a study of human religious thought and reeactions. Perhaps Mr Bain and his friends are doing something similar. Here’s a thought: if we discontinue communication with them, they won’t have anything to study…
Soli Deo Gloria.
Praise God!!! That’s all it’s about, everything, Praise and Glory to God. Nothing we agree or disagree on matters, we are human and we are sinners. There are only two kinds of people on earth Saved and Unsaved, and I don’t remember reading anywhere in the bible that Christ or his disciples were Calvinist, they were Christian. Remember Mark 9:38-41
God bless, and may His Peace, Mercy and Joy find you and all of us..
ok thanks for clarifying. i was a bit confused when you sent invitations to both blogs. i would like to try to just make sure im clear myself…i did not say all arminians are saved, i said i believe their are christians mixed up in the arminian church. but anyway i enjoy the discussion.
By His Grace,
daniel
hey i ran across your site because i was reading dainels….and i just wanted to say thanks for the laugh
thanks for the invite on the blogring, but like i said, i don’t speak peace to arminians, and as a sidenote, i don’t believe hyper-calvinists are automatically unsaved, although obviously i feel it’s dangerous. anyways, feel free to interact with anything i write and correct me anywhere you think i’m wrong. peace.
I do, in fact, believe in the Doctrine of Election and Grace but i would never, never presume the role of God in damning anyone to hell in the way you do on this page of yours. You are condescending in a way that boggles my mind. Lets not unite under the name of JOHN CALVIN ! ! ! what the heck did you do with Christ, don’t take more pride in the name of Clavin than in the name of Christ… you are doing an excellent job in causing unity to become extinct in the body of Christ, not by teaching correct doctrine, but by killing the Gospel in the way you are presenting it
My goodness! “I want men everywhere to lift up holy hands in prayer without anger or DISPUTING.” 1 timothy 2:8 Lets use our time and energy for the things that glorify God.
wait one more comment this saddens me…..
I seriously think your focusing too much on who is Calvinist and who isnt. Coming from a Calvinst- Arminians can know Christ. John Calvin deserved hell just as much and a condemed soul. Dont get too cought up in who has your doctrine. Believe and defend your doctrine, but dont trash other Christians for not believing in the Sovereignty of Christ. The only reason we believe what we do is because Christ allowed us to. Who are we to boast in that? If Christ wanted to change the hearts of Arminians, He would. Worry about the missions. Leave the heart of man up to Christ.
Just my opinion
-Topher
Ahh ignorance. Ya gotta love it. This blog would be funny if it weren’t for the poor souls who will read this and never take Christianity seriously again. Jesus, could pray John 18 to the Father again? We could sure use some of it.
who da fuk is dis.. don b tryin too leav yo mark at ma site.. biatchh f off
Well, I’m kicking you off the Calvinist blogring. Your brash hyper-calvinist comments are not appreciated. Your comments come out of a prideful, elitist attitude. Remember 1 John?
“Anyone who claims to be in the light but hates his brother is still in the darkness. Whoever loves his brother lives in the light, and there is nothing in him to make him stumble. But whoever hates his brother is in the darkness and walks around in the darkness; he does not know where he is going, because the darkness has blinded him.Anyone who claims to be in the light but hates his brother is still in the darkness. Whoever loves his brother lives in the light, and there is nothing in him to make him stumble. But whoever hates his brother is in the darkness and walks around in the darkness; he does not know where he is going, because the darkness has blinded him.”
You piss people off. You are not humble. You are damaging the integrity the term “Calvinism”
“Love is patient, love is kind. It does not envy, it does not boast, it is not proud. It is NOT RUDE, it is not selfseeking, it is not easily angered, it keeps no record of wrongs. Love does not delight in evil but rejoices with the truth. It always protects, always trusts, always hopes, always perseveres.”
Remember 1 Corinthians 13? Or did you overlook that in your quest to convince yourself of the damnation of all Arminians?
Nobody cares about your arrogant exegetical acrobatics trying to prove Arminians are lost, or anything else for that matter. All because of your attitude, obviously.
Repent Andrew. And stay out of this blogring. You’ve done nothing but damage it.
This news that Jesus’s blood does not cleanse the sinful soul of an Arminian comes to me, an Arminian for the most part, with great distress! I suppose I should start praying that those with whom I share God’s good Gospel come to be Calvinists, so that at least some will find salvation. I also need to instruct my fellow evangelists who are Calvinists that I too need to be told of Christ, in addition to those we traditionally consider “the lost.” Thank you for this update on the salvation of Christ! Unfortunatley, since I cannot make any significant choices, I cannot decide to embrace this salvation but must rather wait for it too just force itself upon me. I do hope it forces itself quickly!
jake